Episode released on: 26. December 2022
The New Customer Experience Management with Ivo Yorgov – THE CX GOALKEEPER – Transformation, Customer Experience, and Leadership Goals
The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Ivo Yorgov
LinkedIn Headline: Managing Director at GemSeek
Highlights:
- 00:00 Game Start
- 01:10 Ivo’s Introduction
- 02:46 Ivo’s values
- 05:16 Ivo’s book: The New Customer Experience Management
- 09:22 Proactive and personalized framework philosophy
- 14:09 Co-creation
- 16:35 Examples of great CX
- 21:29 ideal profile of a productive company.
- 23:46 The future of CX
- 25:55 Book Suggestion
and much more
Ivo’s Contact Details:
His book suggestion:
- Leadership in Turbulent Times by Doris Kearns Goodwin
Ivo’s Golden Nuggets:
- It’s like a call to action or something that I remind myself often it’s really: “to bite the bullet, not to forget to bite the bullet when we need to because that really enables us to act. Oftentimes you’re like is this gonna work? Is this not gonna work? Well, we don’t really know if a lot of things are gonna to work. Sometimes you gotta to just bite the bullet and there is always a plan B there is always a way back. Something that I kind of learn from it. Again, Franklin Delano Roosevelt from the book that I mentioned, it’s like, above all, do something. So you really got to, you’ve got to start trying to. Basically advocating getting for a very entrepreneurial approach in which you start doing things.
“Bite the bullet. Don’t forget to bite the bullet when we need to because that really enables us to act.” Ivaylo Yorgov on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast
Tweet
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What we discussed:
Gregorio Uglioni
Ladies and gentleman, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast your host, Greg will have smart discussions with friends, experts and thought leaders on customer experience transformation and leadership. Please follow this podcast on your preferred platform. I am sure you will enjoy the next episode with the guest I selected for you.
Ladies and gentleman tonight it’s really a big big pleasure because I have Ivo Yorgov together with me. Hi Ivo, how are you?
Ivo Yorgov
Gonna go to a very well, thank you so much. And you?
Gregorio Uglioni
very well, it’s really a pleasure because I am super thrilled to start a discussion with you, you wrote an outstanding book, the name is the new customer experience management, why and how the companies of the future address their customer needs proactively. This is an outstanding book, congratulation, and then super happy that we are going to discuss that.
Ivo Yorgov
Thank you so much Gregorio, thank you for having me with you today. I feel like I’m in an excellent company, really with the with the top customer experience professionals such as yourself and your audience.
Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. It’s a great pleasure. And that’s not the first time that we are collaborating, because we were also participating together to the last customer experience war game, and outstanding experiences, we share together something for a charity purpose. And therefore I think, and I really been thankful that you were part of this game and you were really a great contribute contributor. But now it’s time to learn a bit more about you. You are also a top player in customer experience, perhaps could you quickly share your highlights from your career that brought you to this phase of writing a group book?
Ivo Yorgov
Sure. I think it all started probably 15 years ago, my background is it was initially mostly market research. So I was working for for a market research company. And even back then I was also involved in other studies like brand and concept and product testing and so on. But I also happen to lengthen the customer experience field 15 years ago, and I to be honest with you, I really loved it because I feel like it’s it’s one of the few fields in which you do kind of win win, you create win win situation. So the company wins and the customer wins. And I really, really love that. And then I changed a couple of a couple of companies before joining GemSeek, creating 11 years ago now. And at GemSeek I was initially, again, also involved pretty much in in running research studies for some of our clients. And then I became the leader of this team. And now I’m the managing director of, one of the managing directors of the company.
Gregorio Uglioni
Not bad. I think this is a career that it’s really brilliant congratulation. But now it’s time to learn a bit better about you, which values drive you in life.
Ivo Yorgov
I think record I’m gonna go with learning is definitely a huge part of me and my life and kind of what I what I like to stand for. And learning really know, you know, in all aspects of life, you know, I strongly believe that yes, it’s, it’s kind of a common saying these days, but our learning doesn’t doesn’t stop when we exit University, obviously. And I feel that we all of us can really do a lot if we if we try to be a little bit better every day. So learn a little bit from the others just basically what you’re helping us to do with your podcast, for example, and learning new things. And I’m a huge fan of also exploring kind of territories that I don’t know, like, a couple of years ago, I picked up doing photography, for example. And that told me told me a lot about telling stories, for example, because it’s at the end of the day photography is about storytelling community can see one picture, but it’s another thing if you do like 15 pictures. So how do you how do you fit this in? In a framework, as we discussed in the conversation below, they’re gonna say learning I like to learn new things I like to learn from from what they do in academia, for example, I don’t shy away from that, because I think it’s, it’s really brilliant work that has been done there. And I, I feel that as practitioners as business leaders, we can really learn a lot from that. By the same token, it’s it’s kind of I’m also driven a lot by by taking actions in order to improve certain things. This kind of fragility and that’s why also how I also tried to work within Gemseek if I if I see something that is wrong, let’s let’s try and act and and change that. And I encourage people with Gemseek to do both of these things as well. So to have kind of a learning culture within the organization in which we learn from from basically everywhere and connect insights from everywhere, but by the same token to apply them into action. If something is wrong within within the company, we go and change it. And I like to work the same way we with clients, for example. So it’s, I’m gonna say, Yes, learning and knowledge, because at the end of the day, we’re also in the knowledge business, you know, helping helping people do stuff better.
Gregorio Uglioni
But I think if I connect with you said, agility, action, and learning or learning from academia, we can take these three words and understand why you wrote this book. Because I think this book that you wrote, can be perhaps used in future in academia, to learn about customer experience. But let’s deep dive in into into your book, The New Customer Experience Management. And there is one word that I think it’s really interesting, the new customer experience management, perhaps can you tell us more about the companies and the leaders of the future?
Ivo Yorgov
Yes, of course, I think initially, and by the way, you’re absolutely right about the motivation to write the book. Yes, at some point, I was like, you know, I kind of felt the need of, because we do a lot of projects with clients. And these things tend to stand to stay a little bit separate unless you connect them into into a common framework. And that’s why what I really tried to do to do in the book simply because it’s, you need something to organize your your thought I think, and, and I felt at some point that that’s, that’s a kind of problem, let’s say, challenge for me. So how does, how does everything that we do fit together. And that’s what I tried to do to do here. And really, the backbone of the of the book is probably a single sentence, you know, that the sale is just the start of it. Because oftentimes, I feel like companies, what they do is, they do the sale, and then they then they detouch from the customer. And then I think especially in the in this world in which you have kind of self serve software, for example, and stuff like that, you cannot do that. Because at the end of the day, companies think that, you know, they create value by providing the service or the product, but the reality is, we all know that it’s the customer who creates the value, unless the customer actually works with the service, or the product, there is no value that is created, it could very easily with a product just sits over there in my in my kitchen and gathers dust. And that’s it and there is no value created in it. So what I think is that the content companies of the future work very actively with with their customers to create value with them. So it’s not not about creating value for the customer, it’s with the customer. And that’s what really the can this kind of partnership approach that you have with customers, you know, when we talk about a lot about empathy and all that, and, and that’s all good. But I think it’s, it’s more about the actions really, because I can have all the empathy in the world. And if I don’t actually translate that into into stuff that I do with someone, it’s gonna mean very little. So yeah, and I, if I maybe can give you one example that I while I was researching the book, I read a blog post by a guy who’s I’ve bought him in the book. But basically, he was saying, you know, I was I was watching a movie together with my friend, because the Amazon had this service, in which you can broadcast to two people simultaneously. So they both watch the movie at the same time. He was like, you know, the broadcasting wasn’t really good. So we couldn’t actually watch the movie together. But he was like, Yeah, okay, fine. I just dropped it. And he’s like, two days later, Amazon send me an email, and they say, Hey, we know that the broadcast wasn’t really good. So here are your $3 back, you know, and he was like, super surprised, simply because he wasn’t expecting that it wasn’t a big deal in the end of the day. But as he concludes, in the end of his story, you know, all this loyalty for $3, you know, because he told the story, I’m telling you the story, and I built all the story in the book and all these costs $3 It’s, it’s nothing crazy, but it’s about a mindset of, you know, I’m gonna go there, and I’m gonna help the customer. You know, it’s not, it’s not about it’s not about just selling the thing. It’s also about knowing whether the customer is happy with it. And if he’s working with or she’s working with the product for it, that was a very long answer to your question.
Gregorio Uglioni
But I think that’s, that’s what I really like, and also the audience like it’s the passion behind what you’re doing what you wrote. If somebody’s watching the video, we see you laughing and explaining this, that this this example, it’s outstanding, and they could use example we can really learn because what you are saying it’s something that we are also facing, we bought something in Amazon, it was $15 or something like that. And then it came out no, the guy that should get that already had this this gadget, and therefore my wife tried to resend it back and she got two options. Options number one, send Sit back and get a complete refund on our credit card. Or the second option is, she can keep that and give it to somebody else. And she gets a refund that she can only use in Amazon. And she started telling that to me, she wants today to work she She explained that to other people. And at the end, the real thing is behind that is the 15 doors are not so much money. But it creates a story behind that. And for Amazon, it would be much more expensive to get the the gadget back and resell it because they need to check it, control it and sell it again. And therefore it it’s these are great stories. And you mentioned at the beginning, also storytelling this this is extremely important. I really like and what you said about proactive? And perhaps could you please share your proactive and personalized framework philosophy that that you’re sharing in your book?
Ivo Yorgov
Yes. Well, this whole idea actually began with you know, the realization really that companies need to stay engaged with customers after they have made the sale. And I think there are basically two things that they can do at this point, they can either, you know, motivate and educate the customer. So work with them, you know, to, to remind them that they have the product to teach them how to make the most out of it. And then the second thing is, products and services sometimes go wrong. So they can also fix customers problems. So I think once you have delivered basically the product or the service, these are the two options that you have a company can advise you or motivate you how to use it or how to make the most out of it. And then they can fix any problems that they have that you have with it. And I think, really this proactive and personalized element comes from. In legal practice, they have the term stealing thunder. So the stealing thunder from the from from the other party is like admitting basically that you have done something wrong. And it works, they do it because it works. There are a number of studies that show that it works. And there are a number of studies, academic research, which shows that he has been proactive and calling the customer and telling them I know that you have a problem. It’s our fault, and we’re going to fix it for you. And this approach works much better than waiting for the customer to give you a call, which you then need to fix. Because at this point, what happens is that first you have received the call. So that’s already time and money. And second, the customer feels like he needs to flag something. So that’s already a problem for them. Well, if you do it, it’s much easier because you feel like someone is taking care of you. And again, that’s that’s another we’re talking about empathy and all that. Very good. But and that’s what Empathy means. Basically, me calling the customer to tell them, I know that you don’t have internet internet, I don’t know why I always give this example of internet because I feel like internet providers know, at any point whether I have internet at home or not do I really need to call them to tell them that they have power. Probably not, you know, and with all the smart devices and all these things, these things are normal, it’s it’s it’s within the it’s fully within their control, Amazon knew that the broadcasting wasn’t really good enough. And I think it’s best if companies do this in a kind of personalized manner, because it’s the me using the product, I probably have a different problem, or I need a different kind of help with that. And so on. So it’s, you need to do it kind of in a personalized way. Because one way to help customers, you know, solve problems and in to educate them, of course, is to have frequently asked questions on the website. But do they really work for people? Like I’m sure that everyone’s got a little bit of specificity in the question that they need to answer. So it’s it’s that kind of personalization that you need coupled with, with proactiveness. And I think that’s, that’s where the magic starts happening. Going back to the example. You know, it’s, it’s not like we’re giving a refund to everyone. It’s to us specifically Gregorio that I’m giving the refund, and I’m giving you the option. And and you can choose different things for different people because we our backbone of the book, you know, with so much data available, and with the state of data analytics, companies, especially the data which companies can actually know these things, they can know that what’s gonna work for evil or for Gregorio or for someone else in Yeah.
Gregorio Uglioni
Before we start discussing about it, I think one thing, it’s also important that you are sharing in your book, you shared about personalization about productivity, but you are also sharing the idea of co-creation with customer. Yeah, could you elaborate a bit on that?
Ivo Yorgov
Co-creation is indeed like, you don’t, you don’t disengage you’re you’re giving people so I gave a very prosaic example if I’m honest in the room because I’m not a big, I’m not big on cooking. So if I if I buy a product that that helps me cook, I am going to need help with that. Otherwise, I’m just gonna drop it. And as I mentioned, I’m also big on photography for example. So you So Adobe’s product for to manage my photos. And what these guys implemented recently is they have an AI which says, you know, they analyze the photo, and then they suggest a couple of edits that other people have done. And that’s super personalized. It’s my photo, it’s my specific photo. And it gives me ideas from from other customers. And I feel like Adobe is really co creating this photo with me in a way, because they’re already giving me a suggestion that they’re teaching me how to do it, they have tutorials and all that, that I think is really important.
Gregorio Uglioni
And what you’re seeing I really liked, it’s also a new feature that I know there are, there are apps that are doing that since since long time, but on the iPhone, now, the iPhone will tell you, you should five picture of the same subject, they’re all similar, which one do we want to keep? Because you don’t need five? Very, very similar pictures. And I think this is also this co creation that is delamain Pay attention you did that I can help you, let’s let’s do that. And this is this can be done in a productive way. And then it’s, it’s, it’s really great.
Ivo Yorgov
that cocreation thing, basically, how much of the work can actually be done by the company itself, in a lot of ways, or how many suggestions or inspirations they can they can give, you know, with the smart devices, for example, I use my watch also for running but, but it also gives you advice for sleeping and all of these things. So it’s like, he nudges you to take a walk. So it’s basically helping me take care of my health. And I think that that’s also co creation is CO creating my my well being.
Gregorio Uglioni
No, I really like it the same, I am using it. And I am super happy that 10 minutes before the hour, it tell you, you need to stand up at least then I’d stay during the last part of the meeting. And it remember me to stay fit and healthy. And I think these are these are great, great examples. You shared already some example. But let’s because I really like your passion. Could you please share your example of great customer experience, in the first case, as a customer, then as a CX specialist, and then as a managing director of of Gemseek, let’s start with as a customer.
Ivo Yorgov
As a customer, I think I’ve always been happy when, when will company, especially when I expect that something is gonna go wrong. When it doesn’t, it’s like, cuz if I expect that everything is gonna go smoothly, and it goes smoothly, that’s all well, but when I have a problem, and I’m like, oh my god, now I need to call them and it’s gonna take me like seven calls in 11 emails and 24 hours to do it. And when in reality, I drop them an email when they say, We understand, you know, so let’s I will, I’m gonna fix it for you immediately. That’s what really works. What works really well for me. And I think it’s, I know that I gave a very, very broad example. But I’ve seen that in, in restaurants in some airlines as well. And all kinds of places, you know, when I when I feel a problem, and they’ve solved it for me, that’s what the when it’s when it’s really powerful in in my view.
Gregorio Uglioni
And now let’s take the lens of CX professional that that you are,
Ivo Yorgov
as in terms of CX, I have dozens of stories or stories really from from our clients, we this kind of proactive approach to managing customer service, for example, it’s it came, it came about a couple of years ago, when we’re working with Liberty global, which is Virgin Media in the UK, you’ll be seeing the rest of Europe, in Switzerland as well. So what they held close, they still have a closed loop program, and it works really well for them. But the problem is that it’s the scale isn’t that big, because they cannot survey everyone every month, simply because people don’t reply to surveys, not not everyone replies to surveys. So what we did with them is to combine behavior on transactional data with the survey data. And we were able to predict which of their customers which people from their customer base are likely to be detractors. So they call them proactively. And that had a huge impact really, on their retention, which is usually easy, wherever well known is a huge problem in in telco. So that I feel is a very good customer experience, you know, someone calling you and telling you, how are you feeling? You know, is there anything wrong? Is there anything we can do and stuff like that. So that’s that I feel is a very good example also applied at scale, because it’s one thing to do it with two customers, but it’s quite a different thing if you if you do it with 1000s of them.
Gregorio Uglioni
And perhaps we have an example as Managing Director of GemSeek but not related to CX but also an intern in internal experience that you have agentic because I know you are growing you have really great company. And I’m quite sure that you have a great example also from your company.
Ivo Yorgov
I think it’s a lot of the great examples that I have are cool. They I think they pointed quite in the same direction. In the worst cases in which we’ve been not going to say flexible, necessarily, but I think it’s more about really proactive in, in doing the job for customers, we’ve had cases in which even before we have won the project, we have started working with the client on questionnaires and stuff like that, and designing the study with them. And I think that that’s really important. Because oftentimes, that basically, the best experience is, you know, in a market research or data analytics world, or whatever it is, you know, we did this analysis, here is the report Best regards, you know, but then goes against what what we’ve been discussing so far, because he didn’t really the client, the moment that I sent them, the report is the moment that the client is going to start working with it. And I need to be there in good examples. It’s always been that we stay with the client, after we can send the report, you know, doing workshops with them, working with them to, to do further actions. And I think one very important point is kind of this meta analytical level, sorry, for the little bit technical term. But for some clients, we do a lot of studies, like when you do 10, studies, 15 studies, I think it’s a good point to take a step back and see what what all of these 15 studies are telling you and not every specific study, because that’s where you start learning about a little bit more in depth about what customers want, and where you stand on that.
Gregorio Uglioni
I think that’s, that’s extremely interesting. But now, you shared several example. And I’m quite sure in your mind, you have also the idea of the best, the ideal profile of a productive company. Could you please share that with us?
Ivo Yorgov
I think the product, the geography of companies, it could be any company really, as long as it’s got the the willingness to act, because a lot of companies talk about how customer centric they are, and I understand the willingness, but sometimes they just can’t act, you know. And then so the new company that says it connects the dots internally, so that, you know, when you don’t have like five databases in which you store customer information, so basically democratizing data within the company, you’ve got very quick decision making, if you have empowered employees. And I think basically, that’s it, as long as you as you give people access to the data, as long as you understand what actions need to be done. And as long as you allow people to take these actions, trusting them to do these actions. As long as these things are in place. I think any company can be can be successful. Of course, it’s much more difficult for bigger companies or old companies. And I see I see it a lot these days, that kind of these digital first companies, companies that that were actually designed to work in a digital world, they’re doing a much better job in this simply because they used to it. But but it doesn’t necessarily need to be the case. We also have a lot of b2b clients, old companies, you know, that I wouldn’t necessarily match up I kind of work sometimes Heidelberg materials these days. b2b company, you know, they do they do cement and they do aggregates, you know, it’s it’s not an, it doesn’t sound like an exciting business. But they have a very exciting Customer Experience program, they won a couple of awards last last year for that. And that’s truly amazing. I think it’s, it’s really this dedication to it, because they build a core team that actually spread the word and, and the philosophy of being customer centric, and they were able to act on it. And that’s it. It’s nothing like nothing unheard of, I think.
Gregorio Uglioni
But there is a long journey to get there. I mean, what what you’re saying it’s really interesting, and I hope that we convince the audience or the audience understand that it’s really a great book, The New Customer Experience Management. And I really suggest and recommend to everybody to buys this book, because I’m quite sure you will learn something new. Now we are coming to an end of this game. But before we end the game, I still have one question. And it’s 10 years 10 years time from now. We are on the CX goalkeeper podcast and we are discussing about customer experience, what is what are the topics that we are discussing?
Ivo Yorgov
That’s a million dollar question. I think 10 years from now. I think 10 years from now, companies will know a little bit better what their customers want and what they need and they will be able to know it without going and asking them. So in some ways, they will be using more like passive and behavioral data that is created by customers to under Standard customers are more about the behavior or data, I think, or Yeah, or the order integration between the two, I think that’s going to be really the big thing. As long as you can integrate kind of the situational data to what customers feel, as long as you can integrate that with behavioral data, what do they do? I think that’s where it will be in 10 years, hopefully, sooner than that. And I think that’s going to unlock really this, this proactive element, this element of personalization, this element of co creation, if you will. So I think it’s going to be become this data collection wouldn’t be a big thing in the future, I feel extremely we go, there is going to be a lot of data that can be collected, it’s going to be more about having access to the data, managing the data, analyzing the data, and then from that, really acting on it. I think that’s it’s, I think it’s fundamental right now. And I think it’s going to be fundamental for the foreseeable future.
Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much, you, we are coming to an end. And in the extra time, the last three, four minutes of this discussion, this game, I still have three question for you. The first one is, is there a book that you would like to suggest to the audience that help you during your career or during your life?
Ivo Yorgov
It’s, I’m gonna change the question a little bit. But right now I’m reading leadership in turbulent times. It’s, it’s a, it’s a biography book. By in a second, I need to find the name of the author, sorry about that. By Doris Kearns Goodwin, is one an amazing writer, I think, and and I think we can all learn about storytelling from her. So basically, what she does is she’s, she’s a biographer of American presidents. So what she’s doing in this book, she’s giving kind of not very short, but relatively short biography of Abraham Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Lyndon Johnson. And basically, she’s, he’s not comparing them directly, but she’s kind of showcasing the approaches and the lives of these four people who all had the opportunity and the challenge to lead in very turbulent times, really? So both in terms of storytelling, how does she build the story? And how does she managed to kind of draw the conclusions from from the very specific examples of Lincoln’s life, for example, so what helped how she managed to draw a conclusion? That’s really amazing. And so writing is one of the things yes, the way she the way she writes. But also in terms of leadership, I think it’s very critical, because all four people, they faced very different challenges. They had different upbringing, they lived in different situations, and they dealt with them in a different way. But they also have commonalities for example, all of them went through a very difficult period in their life. For example, Franklin Delano Roosevelt got polio. So he got paralyzed from the from the waist below. And all the rest also had some something. Probably not, not that. Not that challenging, but but a huge challenge. And I think he, they all went through kind of a couple of years in which they had to grow as leaders, you know, we do the self awareness and how to find motivation, and how to find their purpose, and so on. So that’s kind of the common the common elements, anything between them, and also the ambition to do something. For some of them, it was ambition to do something with their own lives, who, for others, it was more like ambition to do something for the people, but it’s, but it’s that drive energy, and all of that. So long story short, I think it’s an amazing book on leadership, I think you can learn a lot about storytelling from it as well.
Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you, and what’s the best way to contact you,
Ivo Yorgov
you can always ping me on LinkedIn. Or you can drop me a note on my GemSeek email address ivaylo.yorgov@gemseek.com. But feel free to reach out on LinkedIn to chat I would love to.
Gregorio Uglioni
And you will find all this information. Also, in the details of this of this podcast, the most important thing that you didn’t share where we can find your book.
Ivo Yorgov
It’s on Amazon, so you can find it on amazon.com You can find it also on on the website of the publisher on the routledge.com
Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. And now it’s really the last question is Ivo’s golden nugget, it’s something that we discussed or something new that you would leave to the audience.
Ivo Yorgov
I probably a little bit more of a, in a less sophisticated negative but more like call to action or something that I remind myself often it’s really to bite the bullet to not forget to bite the bullet when when when when we need to because that really enables us to act I think because oftentimes you’re like is this gonna work? Is this not gonna work? Well, we don’t really know if if a lot of things are gonna work. Sometimes you got to just bite the bullet and there is always plan B there is always a way back. And you know, something that I kind of learn from it. Again, Franklin Delano Roosevelt from the book that I mentioned, it’s like, above all, you know, do something. So you really got to, you’ve got to start trying to. A lot of like, basically advocating getting for a very entrepreneurial approach in which you, you start doing things.
Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. I think this is the best way to conclude this discussion. It’s doing thing and therefore, please buy the book of Ivo. The new customer experience management, why and how the companies of the future to address their customer needs proactively. It’s a great book. Thank you very much Ivo for your time.
Ivo Yorgov
Thank you so much Gregorio for having me.
Gregorio Uglioni
Ivo, Please stay with me to the audience. It’s everything for this episode. We love feedback. Therefore, feel free to contact me or contact Ivo to have a discussion to deep dive on the book, or to ask any question. Thank you very much, and bye bye.
Ivo Yorgov
Thank you.
Gregorio Uglioni
If you enjoyed this episode, please share the word of mouth. Subscribe it, share it. Until the next episode. Please don’t forget, we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you
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- Stitcher: https://bit.ly/3pws7ISCXGK
📹 as a Webcast you can subscribe it on YouTube
THANK YOU – feedback always welcome, please DM me!
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THANK YOU SO MUCH! STAY TUNED FOR THE NEXT EPISODE!
THE CX GOALKEEPER 